Syracuse Ska Forum

This is an interesting question that was started on the sXe thread, but given that my very pro-active side is becoming quite manifest in the last couple days, it's a good time to talk about this subject ...

If you don't already know, I do not believe in the idea that "everyone should do whatever they want". I'm okay with it until it starts stepping all over the rights of others to live in peace and I often find "freedom" to be an excuse for what I consider bullying.

"Bullying" to me is imposing your will either via physical or verbal aggression. You intimidate someone because you're bigger or more willing to fight dirty. I find verbal assaults to be a form of bullying too. You intimidate because you're more willing to say nasty, hurtful things.

It seems to me that civil society can't afford to let bullys win or civility gets replaced by brute force. Whoever fights nastiest prevails. Is that really what any society finds desirable?

Now, I know there's a philosophical argument that we're mere animals and fighting nasty is a normal way for animals to sort out differences. But don't most of us agree that we'd like to think we've evolved beyond that by now?

And to bring this more down-to-earth, is it good or bad when I've intervened at shows or lately, on messageboards? If you don't know me well, this isn't a new thing with me. I've been this way since junior high, when I used to accompany other kids to the administration office and plead their cases to the school dean. I've always been notorious for such behavior.

I'm the guy who stopped the moshing at a Slackers show in Cortland once, because a bunch of small high school grrls were getting beat up and it seemed to be ruining the show for everyone else there. I'm the same guy who broke up two guys at a Penn State Skafest, because it was going to turn into a free-for-all brawl that might have closed that fest down and ruin any chance of further skafests there (I knew the guy who was putting it on and how precarious his position was with the university).

I grew up a punker and to me, there are good pits and bad pits. Bad pits are where big kids are beating up on smaller kids for laughs, seriously hurting them and no one does anything about it. I'm known for intervening in those situations.

Now, there are people who have always argued that I have no business intervening in situations like those. "Let whatever happens, happen". I just find that an invitation to bullying.

Is it right to cut kids off on messageboards when they start trading nasty personal attacks? Is it right of me to talk to them privately as I always do to try to work it out peacefully?

Some people have stated that I'm too controlling in these situations and I recognize that as a serious issue. Maybe I am. But my view of the world is that not enough people intervene when people get nasty and that's how we end up with problems in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, The Sudan, Iraq, etc., etc. In my thinking, "eye for an eye" retribution ultimately leaves the whole world blind.

But when is it morally correct intervention and when is it imposing ones values on others incorrectly? When is it treating grown-ups like kids or sticking ones nose where it doesn't belong?

I'm sincerely asking for opinions on these issues ...

People who act like children need to be treated like children. By being the adult and pulling the bad apples out and helping them it's improving a group's overall mentality without creating drama by hashing things out in front of everyone.

It's simple psychology.

I think as a promoter you need to use your judgment, because ultimately if kids are getting harassed, hurt, or whatever at one of your shows, it'll be less likely they'll come out to the next one. I agree with the good pit/bad pit thing. I honestly think it's a judgment call. If it's creating a negative environment for the show, it needs to be stopped. If the pit is consuming the entire place and including people who don't want to be in it, it has to stop.

As far as a messageboard goes, I think most people tend to be more of an asshole online than in real life, and no matter what you do, bickering is going to take place here. I think it's immature and lame, but it's going to happen.

You know that I generally agree and feel the same way about most of what you say Danny.. This is just another one of those issues..

I agree with a lot of these points, it's my personal opinion that moshing to ska altogether is dumb, but if the pit isn't too out of control, and the people that want to dance can still can, and the people that just want to stand around can still do that, it's fine, but if it gets more out of hand than that, i think people are greatful when you break it up

I think you guys put too much emphasis on dancing. I enjoy it, but it gives me the ability to see why someone would enjoy moshing. How can you tell someone that what they enjoy isn't as good as what you enjoy?

cuz when mosh pits get out of control some people who dont want to be in it get pulled into the pit and then people get hurt


and ska isnt violent enough for people to get hurt

Exactly. I don't mind people who mosh, as long as it doesn't infringe my right to enjoy myself, by either dancing or just standing around.

On domestic issues on a really small scale, i agree with you whole heartedly, people need to be dealt with if they are acting in a way that infiringes on other people.

In terms of forums, i mostly agree, at the same time, it is more up to people who are posting to not get out of hand when they post. Usually there is a set of conditions that you can create on messageboards that outline all that you have to follow when posting, and if you don't adhere to them, you get kicked off, your posts get deleted, etc. In terms of that problem that could help. As for people posting.......THINK!......before you type something.

As for moshing at SKA shows, i also agree, it should be broken up, because it really isn't necessary for the some types of ska music (for instance the slackers (i don't really know them that well, so if someone could help on this one) seem like more of a two tone band, i think it really isn't necessary). As for more harder punk ska, and ska core bands, i guess that's the style and it will happen, so it should prolly should be allowed, but not if it hurts others. Where to draw the line, i'm not sure.

You have to remember though, if they aren't bothering anyone else, breaking it up is infringing on their right to enjoy the show how they want.

Horrible.

Absolutely horrible.



Even the hardest music out there isn't 'violent'... douchebags that attend shows are. And if I saw someone purposely trying to cause harm to someone, or make anyone at MY show uncomfortable. I would talk to them, then if that failed... EJECTED!

There's no excuse for people to be walking out of a show hurt... ANY show.



Guitarist from Dropdead once said: "That's not dancing. That's just being an asshole."

if ska is about unity and non-violence, im gonna go ahead and say ska isnt violent.

if you write songs about beating the shit out of people, shooting up your school or conducting a masscre in your neighborhood, its violent music regardless of how heavy it is

Nevermind.

MY POINT IS LOST.











Carry on!

Danny,

I think that it is your responsibility as the guy who puts the shows on to keep it clean. And i think that it is your responsibility as the administrator of this site to stop anybody who's putting down other people. If they got a beef with the way you take care of business then tough cookies. You're just doing your job.

Also, on the topic of putting people down on the forum, how cowardly is someone who has to diss people online in order to get their laughs or whatever they do it for. Which rises another question, why do people have to put other people down at all? In my opinion, ska is about havin' fun, so dont make it unfun(is that even a word?) by hurtin' people.

Well, i'm done ranting for now, I have to go rest my fingers.

AMEN!