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 Post subject: i spent my weekend in fort benning georgia, here is why
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:08 pm 
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How many of you have ever heard of the School of the Americas, the SOA?

The School of the Americas or WHINSEC (Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) is a U.S. Army training school that trains soldiers and military personnel from Latin American countries in subjects like counter-insurgency, military intelligence and counter-narcotics operations.
Under Department of Defense jurisdiction, this school is funded by U.S. taxpayer money, all of the training is conducted in Spanish, and most of the classes are taught by Latin American instructors. According to the SOA itself, more than 60,000 members of Latin American militaries have attended the SOA since its inception in 1946.

What is wrong with the SOA?

SOA/ WHINSEC graduates have included some of the worst and most notorious human rights abusers in Latin American history, and for much of the world, the school, under any name, is synonymous with torture and impunity. SOA graduates have led military coups and are responsible for massacres of hundreds of people. Among the SOA's more than 60,000 alumni are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador and Hugo Banzar Suarez of Bolivia. SOA graduates were responsible for the Uraba massacre in Colombia, the El Mozote massacre of 900 civilians in El Salvador, the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the massacre of 14-year-old Celina Ramos, her mother Elba Ramos and six Jesuit priests in El Salvador and hundreds of other human rights abuses.
Furthermore, the full scope of atrocities committed by SOA graduates will likely never be known because members of Latin American militaries are generally above the law. It is rare that crimes by members of these militaries are investigated and rarer still when the names of those suspected are released.

With 20,000 others, I protested the SOA/WHINSEC this weekend at the gates of Fort Benning.The SOA was "closed" in December of 2000 and "reopened" on January 17, 2001 with a new name, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC). The school can and will be shut down for good: Contact your elected representatives and ask them to support HR 1217, Representative Jim McGovern's bill to suspend operations at and investigate the SOA/ WHINSEC. Ask your friends, family, and everybody you know and meet to do the same.

Please visit soaw.org to view the names SOA graduates, the torture manuals they learned from, the names of those murdered and learn what you can do to close the SOA for good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:39 pm 
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"Suppose a man to have been trained in the palestra and to be a skilful boxer-he in the fullness of his strength goes and strikes his father or mother or one of his familiars or friends; but that is no reason why the trainers or fencing-masters should be held in detestation or banished from the city-surely not. For they taught their art for a good purpose, to be used against enemies and evil-doers, in self-defence not in aggression, and others have perverted their instructions, and turned to a bad use their own strength and skill. But not on this account are the teachers bad, neither is the art in fault, or bad in itself; I should rather say that those who make a bad use of the art are to blame."
-Gorgias

Donald J. Zehyl, Plato’s Gorgias (Hackett Publishing Company, 1987)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:41 pm 
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The few "bad apples" argument is not very convincing, given the weight of the evidence about the involvement of SOA graduates in human rights abuses -- two of three officers cited in the assassination of Archbishop Romero; three of five officers cited in the rape and murder of four U.S. churchwomen; ten of twelve cited for the El Mozote massacre of 900 civilians; over 100 of 246 cited for atrocities in Colombia. And again the full scope of atrocities committed by SOA graduates will likely never be known because members of Latin American militaries are generally above the law. It is rare that crimes by members of these militaries are investigated and rarer still when the names of those suspected are released.
The SOA was founded as a combat school focused on counterinsurgency techniques. Rather than contributing to the development of democracy in the region, the SOA actually taught methods that undermined and destroyed democratic values.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:49 pm 
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My argument has nothing to do with a "few bad apples." It has everything to do with blaming an institution (and in turn the United States government) for the atrocities of the men they trained.

Why would the WHINSEC intentionally train and equip men who eventually become enemies of this country, and increase instability in its hemisphere?

How many of the WHINSEC's graduates went on to further the cause of democracy and prevent the continued atrocities of insurgent groups in their home countries?

If a Marine (or even a hundred Marines) who is trained at Parris Island goes on a killing spree, does that mean Parris Island should be shut down? No, because 99% of the Marines who complete that training go on to serve honorably in service to this country.

The same can be said for any training institution in the world, including the one in question. Seeing as how they have had over 57,000 military personnel and civilians complete the training.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:05 pm 
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Why would the WHINSEC intentionally train and equip men who eventually become enemies of this country, and increase instability in its hemisphere?
The US wants puppet nations. These graduates are not enemies of the US, they act as pawns to get the US control by creating chaos and destroying goverments that won't cooperate. Military oppression is their goal.

How many of the WHINSEC's graduates went on to further the cause of democracy and prevent the continued atrocities of insurgent groups in their home countries?

None. Rather than contributing to the development of democracy in the region, the SOA actually taught methods that undermined and destroyed democratic values through military oppression.

You can find criminals of every ilk who graduated from Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, but no one advocates closing those institutions because of the crimes of some of their graduates. If Harvard, Yale, or Princeton taught their students combat skills that to be used against non-combatant civilians, we would justifiably call for their closure.

What needs to be understood is the US doesn't care about peace when it comes to latin america, the US wants control. As stated in official SOA publications "the primary foreign policy goal of the US in latin america is economic development along free market principles"

I urge to go to soaw.org and read about the attrocities commited by SOA graduates and understand why the SOA is in no way a positive thing for latin america or the world.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:14 pm 
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Ruder Than You

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conspiracy theory anyone?

Wouldn't the US have more control over Latin America if they had our style of government?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:25 pm 
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585 Ska
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Karenjacktastic wrote:
Why would the WHINSEC intentionally train and equip men who eventually become enemies of this country, and increase instability in its hemisphere?


Because WHINSEC cannot predict the future, any more than any other government agency can.

Saddam Hussein was our buddy once upon a time.

Iranian military leaders saw through US attempts to probe their radar grid using unmanned spy planes, because we trained those leaders, supporting the Shah in the '70s.

The Nicaraguan Contras, CIA support for bin Laden and the mudjahideen in Cold War Afghanistan, CIA-trained anti-Castro terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, the list goes on with examples of American meddling in foreign affairs, designed to further the country's interest, but then blowing up in our faces.

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Last edited by aka_twitch on Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:32 pm 
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585 Ska
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Ben wrote:
conspiracy theory anyone?

Wouldn't the US have more control over Latin America if they had our style of government?


President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela and President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of Brazil were democratically elected, and are no friends of the US.

The push for democracy in the Middle East is hampered by a fear that Islamic fundamentalists will be voted into power.

There is no guarantee that the will of a people will favor your interest.

It's perfectly natural to play kingmaker to get circumstances that favor your interest.

What infuriates me is the lip service paid to now-hollow ideals.

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Last edited by aka_twitch on Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:34 pm 
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aka_twitch wrote:
Karenjacktastic wrote:
Why would the WHINSEC intentionally train and equip men who eventually become enemies of this country, and increase instability in its hemisphere?


Because WHINSEC cannot predict the future, any more than any other government agency can.

Saddam Hussein was our buddy once upon a time.

Iranian military leaders saw through US attempts to probe their radar grid using unmanned spy planes, because we trained those leaders, supporting the Shah in the '70s.

The Nicaraguan Contras, CIA support for bin Laden and the mudjahideen in Cold War Afghanistan, CIA-trained anti-Castro terrorist Luis Posada Carriles the list goes on with examples of American meddling in foreign affairs, designed to further the country's interest, but then blowing up in our faces.


That is precisely my point. They are not intentionally training men who will be our enemies.

It would not be beneficial to the Western Hemisphere to shut down a school that has produced thousands who have fought for causes of human rights and democracy because a handful have used those teachings to undermine the very mission of the institution.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:38 pm 
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585 Ska
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Karenjacktastic wrote:
It would not be beneficial to the Western Hemisphere to shut down a school that has produced thousands who have fought for causes of human rights and democracy because a handful have used those teachings to undermine the very mission of the institution.


But it keeps happening. Over and over again.

To supposedly stand for human rights, but continue to train people who threaten us when we have no more use of them is stupid, hypocritical and irresponsible.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:12 pm 
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aka_twitch wrote:
Karenjacktastic wrote:
It would not be beneficial to the Western Hemisphere to shut down a school that has produced thousands who have fought for causes of human rights and democracy because a handful have used those teachings to undermine the very mission of the institution.


But it keeps happening. Over and over again.

To supposedly stand for human rights, but continue to train people who threaten us when we have no more use of them is stupid, hypocritical and irresponsible.


Yet, as the world's sole super-power, and the country with the strongest military on Earth, it is our responsibility to pass that training onto our allies, and use it to protect our own security.

Unfortunately, the world is not static. Allegiances change, and the teachings that once aided us (such as in preventing the USSR from taking over Afghanistan) can come back to hurt us (Al-Qaeda and the Taliban).

On top of which, successes of training such as this rarely makes the news, yet the cases like Noriega do. So the extent of the achievements of this school will never be fully known, but the failures will be in the spotlight of public scrutiny. DoD has determined that this school is in the interest of the security of this nation and our allies, and therefore they continue to fund it.

I realize I am in the minority in this, but in keeping with the tradition of wholesome debate, I feel a responsibility to represent the other side.


Last edited by Karenjacktastic on Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:13 pm 
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The graduates of the SOA are not fighting for human rights. To say this is incredibly ignorant. I don't know how many times I can ask you without sounding rude to please research the issue instead of assuming that the US wants peace in latin america instead of understanding what they want is power and economic advantage as Twitch and I have been trying to express.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:18 pm 
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I respect your opinion, and respect it even more because you backed up your words and demonstrated for what you believe in.

Do not call me ignorant because I represent the other side of the debate. I have researched the issue, but as I have stated the thousands of positive cases will never be known; the dozens of bad cases will.

The Department of Defense does not put millions of dollars of money into a school that does not benefit this country's best interest; democracy in the Western Hemisphere is in this country's best interest.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:30 pm 
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585 Ska
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I keep telling you guys, its all the shadow government.

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But they learn not to care before anything is saved


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:38 pm 
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585 Ska
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It is the nature of nations and humans to do anything within their power to protect their own. I have no quarrel with that.

What I object to is copping a superior attitude because we supposedly stand for higher ideals, even though the government will not take responsibility for giving aid and comfort to enemies.

Play realpolitik or take the moral high ground, I'll take it on a case by case basis. Terrible things must be done sometimes.

But don't lie to me about it.

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